Athée Canadien
Sam Harris on the Norway Attacks
By Ian
Sam Harris has a new post with some comments on the recent Norway terrorist attacks which left me scratching my head a bit.
I have no issue with the first half, and agree that perhaps “Christian Fundamentalist” is the wrong label to attach to Breivik, especially given his deluded rantings that he calls a manifesto.
But then Harris jumps into this:
One can only hope that the horror and outrage provoked by Breivik’s behavior will temper the growing enthusiasm for right-wing, racist nationalism in Europe. However, one now fears the swing of another pendulum: We are bound to hear a lot of deluded talk about the dangers of “Islamophobia” and about the need to address the threat of “terrorism” in purely generic terms.
The emergence of “Christian” terrorism in Europe does absolutely nothing to diminish or simplify the problem of Islam—its repression of women, its hostility toward free speech, and its all-too-facile and frequent resort to threats and violence. Islam remains the most retrograde and ill-behaved religion on earth. And the final irony of Breivik’s despicable life is that he has made that truth even more difficult to speak about.
Which, on its face, is true, yet seems to quickly focus on the wrong issues.
If we’re just going to focus on the West, then “the problem of Islam” may be relatively minor compared to people like Breivik. The overwhelming majority of terrorist attacks in Europe over the past decade have not been due to Islamists, but rather to the Islamophobic white nationalists.
As Mehdi Hasan, editor of the New Statesman, has pointed out, figures compiled by Europol, the European police agency, suggest that the threat of Islamist terrorism is minimal compared with “ethno-nationalist” and “separatist” terrorism. According to Europol, in 2006, one out of 498 documented terrorist attacks across Europe could be classed as “Islamist”; in 2007, the figure rose to just four out of 583 - less than one per cent of the total. By contrast, 517 attacks across the continent were claimed by – or attributed to – nationalist or separatist terrorist groups, such as ETA in Spain.
It’s further worrying that Breivik’s scribblings mirror the regressive anti-feminist approach of the more repressive Islamic writers.
I think Harris really missed the chance to put a greater criticism out there on this issue, instead returning to his favourite topic. He could have exposed how it was Breivik’s absolutism and self-deluded belief that he held the Truth that allowed him to commit these atrocities. These faults are features of all major religions, and are what allow “good people to do bad things.”
I much prefer the words of Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg: “Our answer is more democracy, more openness, more humanity, but never naiveties.”
Stoltenberg isn’t calling for us to ignore sexism and abuse within Muslim communities (especially those within our own countries), but to rather reach out to these people and work in a humane way to improve conditions for all. Our goal should be the eradication of irrational beliefs through peaceful and democratic means.
Finally, in light of my words a couple days ago, here is a very tangible danger to associating ourselves with the wrong groups in our fight for secularism. Harris mentions how Ayaan Hirsi Ali was praised in Breivik’s work.
I’m not saying we need to abandon our works or temper our criticisms (Islam is still bad, but at least equally bad are self-righteous men and women like Breivik), but we need to recognize the absolutists and ensure we do not further their polarizing agenda. And on a more practical level, any association with the bigots will only work against us on a PR level.
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about 9 months ago
This is pretty standard Harris unfortunately, he views islam as pure evil, and postmodern… multiculturalism… as an enabler, and therefore just as evil. This is what worries me about atheists, while there is a huge difference between criticizing religion and religionphobia… I find many atheists tend to err on the side of the latter, rather than the former.
about 9 months ago
I’m glad people like Harris exist, it’s not unfortunate at all that he thinks the way he does. Islam *is* pure evil, unless you are not familiar with it. I suggest you do an experiment and move to a country where Muslims are the majority, like Egypt for example, then wear an atheist t-shirt (like “all gods are false gods”, I wore mine today, hehe ), and see what you get.
What worries me about atheists is that there are more thinking like you than Harris. As long as you focus on Islam to the detriment of other religions, you branded as an “islamophobe”, a word that actually doesn’t exist. You say “religionphobia” (that doesn’t exist either), and taking into account that a phobia is an irrational fear, you’re assertion is certainly false. There is nothing irrational in the fear of Islam. You either don’t know history, Islam, haven’t lived in an Islamic country, or all of the above.
I think Harris views Islam the way I do it. While there are plenty of people complaining about the Catholic church, this church has already been put in its place, the Enlightenment has dealt with it. Just compare the CC of the 11th century, with the one today.
On the other hand, here we have a religion that hasn’t changed since the 11th century, as untamed as it was back then, hating the Enlightenment, hating evolution, a religion that permeates to the core whole countries and societies, one who controls 1 billion people. It’s like the Catholic Church of the 11th century has been teleported in the 21st century, with all the cruelty, fanaticism and superstition characteristic of those days. A religion that persecutes and kills those who don’t submit, where it dominates.
about 9 months ago
Judging atheism…. by the two great examples of state atheism, the soviet union, and china, would be unfair. Moderate Islam exists, and if you read history, there are examples of tolerant muslim countries. And Turkey is actually very secular.
And, there was a time when ‘homophobe’ didn’t exist either, doesn’t mean there weren’t any before the word existed. Being afraid of heights… when one is on a mountain top is not irrational, but one can still be irrationally afraid of heights.
about 9 months ago
Judging atheism by “the two great examples of state atheism” would be non-sensical before it would be unfair. The soviet union politics, laws and objectives were not based on Darwin’s Origin of Species. Darwin was not considered the “founding father” of the soviet union, they were not quoting him when they nationalized economic entities, etc. So let’s not fall for the idiotic xtian/muslim propaganda by perpetuating their fallacious arguments.
Moderate Islam does exist, but is never a force in everyday life, and that’s because it doesn’t have a foundation in the Koran and the Sunnah. Fundamentalism has always been (and always will as long as the Koran and the Sunnah exists) superior ideologically, it simply adheres closely to these two.
Turkey is not “very secular”, maybe you should follow the news more closely. The constitution establishes compulsory religious and moral instruction in primary and secondary schools (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/eur/136062.htm). 45% say Islam playing a large role in politics is a good thing, versus 38% who say it’s not (http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-03.png). 69% of Turkish Muslims see Islam playing a large role in the political life of their countries (http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-08.png). More than half in Turkey (52%) see a struggle in their country between modernizers and fundamentalists. (http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-11.png). 16% (11 million turks) would favor making harsh punishments such as stoning people who commit adultery; 13% (9 million turks) whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 5% (~4 million turks) favour the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion the law in their country. (http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-13.png). Most turks do not believe Arabs carried out 9/11 attack (73%; 18% say they dk) http://pewglobal.org/files/2011/07/2011-Muslim-West-07.png.
This country was not secular because of Islam, but because its modern founder fought against Islam, introduced secularism by force, and the army enforced this secularism forcefully. But this is all water under the bridge by now, the army has been rendered powerless by the current islamic govt, whose prime-minister, as I said in the other blog entry, said that “Democracy is like a streetcar. When you come to your stop, you get off”. The top generals of the army just resigned. In these later years, turks and foreigners are seeing Turkey going towards theocracy. The authoritarianism of this PM is getting more visible day by day, and he’s not only popular, he’s a pious Muslim. The secularists are losing ground, fast.
In other news regarding Turkey: the reality on the ground is dire. If one is under the suspicion he tries to proselytize, he might be in grave danger: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/turkey.christian.missionaries.horrifically.tortured.before.killings/10523.htm
The religion of peace strikes again, in this “very secular” country. As an anecdote, I know a guy, an xtian history student at an american university; the uni was organizing a study trip to Turkey, to famous ruins related to ancient xtian history. Before they left, they were carefully instructed on what to say and what not to say to the locals.
Thousands attend bin Laden ‘funeral’, call him “a beautiful, wise man, warrior for Islam” – http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4066313,00.html
Growing Islamic govt influence makes life hell for women: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=domestic-violence-rings-alarm-bells-in-turkey-2011-04-28
“U.S. troops in Afghanistan near the border with Pakistan in 2007 were persistently attacked by militants identified as Turkish fighters, according to the trove of documents released Sunday by WikiLeaks.” – http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/07/wikileak-u-s-battling-militants-from-turkey-its-nato-ally/
In 2003, 15% had confidence in Bin Laden, but this number fell to 3% in 2010 (http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-07.png) Favourable views of al-qaida and bin laden were at 4% in 2010 (http://pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-06.png) How much is that? 3.000.000 turks!
You say “Being afraid of heights… when one is on a mountain top is not irrational, but one can still be irrationally afraid of heights.” Yes, one “can be”, but one is not.
about 9 months ago
That 2009 NewStatesman article doesn’t have the more recent April 19 2011 figures from Europol:
“In 2010 611 individuals were arrested for terrorist-related offences, of which 179 were linked to Islamist terrorism, representing a 50% increase on the previous year. Meanwhile Islamist terrorist groups issued 46 threat statements to interests in the EU, which also represents an increase on 2009.”
Islamist terrorism doesn’t appear to be “less than one per cent of the total” any more.
about 9 months ago
I would note that your figures are on a different metric than Ian’s. Yours are for the arrest of individuals for terrorist-related offenses while his are for actual terror attacks carried out. A significant difference, particularly given the well-known effects of law-enforcement’s profiling of minorities leading to disproportionate arrest rates despite the criminal activity being no more widespread in those minorities than in the general population. And while I don’t know if Europe has a similar issue, I have also noted that even when white Christians are arrested in North America with all the appearances and paraphernalia associated with terrorism, they still seem to be able to avoid the “terrorism-related charges” that get slapped regularly on Muslims with far less in the way of actual evidence.
Basically, I can’t take your metric as contra-evidence to the attacks metric in the post. Do you happen to have the equivalent Europol attack metric for 2011?
about 9 months ago
When religious barbarians are at war it’s all civilization can do to avoid being caught up in the crossfire, and singling out any particular religion for criticism is a way of losing focus on the problem.
about 9 months ago
“I think Harris really missed the chance to put a greater criticism out there on this issue, instead returning to his favourite topic.”
Well, that’s what he wanted to write about. He must have missed your memo to write what you wanted him to write about.
about 9 months ago
White nationalism is rejected by the majority of people in the mainstream, due to its outcomes from Hitler and Stalin. It’s not controversial to say “white nationalism is bad”, in fact it is considered a positive statement by the mainstream majority. White nationalism is a fringe ideology today and is shunned as such.
This is not the case with Islam. In the mainstream today if you say “Islam is bad” you are considered “islamophobic” and racist… My guess why Sam Harris didn’t talk much about the white nationalism being bad is because it is self evident to everyone. That battle was won a long time ago. It’s time now for the new battle, for the mainstream to expose Islam to be just as bad of an ideology as white nationalism.
about 9 months ago
Bad comparison. “White is bad” would be better…. and radical islam.
Most muslims are just trying to live their lives like everyone else.
about 9 months ago
Actually I believe it is a very fair comparison. There are moderate white nationalists that don’t commit terrorism and they run for parliament (look at the EDL and BNP in the UK), and are also “just trying to live their lives like everyone else”. This doesn’t change the structure of the idea being a bad and dangerous one and this is true of Islam. I know there are moderate and extremist Muslims, but that doesn’t change the fact that the structure of Islam itself is dangerous.
Furthermore, if you read the Qur’an its content is eerily similar to most white nationalists manifestos..